My guest for this episode is Nan McCarry, and she’s no exception to the exceptional people I’ve been fortunate to get to know because of this podcast. Nan is an ethnobotanist by passion and trade, and she has had a focus on the native grapes of North America over the last few years. What we might call “native” grapes, Nan refers to as “crop wild relatives.” She talks about the importance of preserving the biodiverse gene pool contained in these crop wild relative, and the work she has helped with to catalog and inventory these North American vines. One of the most famous incidents demonstrating the importance of the biodiversity contained within crop wild relatives is the rescue of the entire European wine industry from phylloxera.

The term “crop wild relatives” of course refers to the genetic ancestors of our current domesticated wine crops. But by the time Nan gets done explaining the process of domestication from an evolutionary perspective, you may begin to think of that term in a different way. You may begin to step away from your human-centric perspective and see yourself as a relative of the grapevines that you tend.

This idea was introduced to me, actually, on a podcast called The Land You’re On, which I highly recommend. It’s a podcast that interviews members of the Onondaga and other nations of the Haudenosaunee, or Iroquois, Confederacy… the oldest currently functioning democracy on earth, and the inspiration for our current society here in the US and other western democracies. If you’ve heard of the three sisters in gardening and farming – corn, beans, and squash – this came from the people of the Haudenosaunee. Like strawberries? You can thank these folks for those as well. And in one of the episodes about an incredible living library of seeds, an Onondaga Seedkeeper talks about how her culture sees food as a relative. The crops collaborate with the people who farm them to help each other survive, have sovereignty, and provide for 7 generations to come. If you’re going to listen to just one episode from this podcast, let it be this one… I never would have thought that a seed bank could make me cry, but wow.

And I began to think about how I could see wine as a relative. What would that mean? How would I work differently with vines? How would I work with fermentations if I took this perspective?

Nan and I talk about a presentation she created which is one of the most unique and impactful combinations of science and psychology that I’ve seen. Nan sees wine, grapevines, and everything from an evolutionary standpoint. And like many of you, and myself, cares deeply about what humans are doing to the environment. Because of this, she partnered with a local organization dedicated to mindfulness – imaginebeingwell.org - to explain the Cosmic Evolution Story and how this helps deal with eco-anxiety. I’ve definitely experienced eco-anxiety, and I found Nan’s presentation to be one of the most helpful things I’ve ever seen, which actually speaks to me from a scientific perspective that I found refreshing and more compelling than many other things I’ve seen. We only touch on a small part of her presentation here, but Nan has generously allowed me to post the entire presentation on her episode page at BeyondOrganicWine.com. Also at BeyondOrganicWine.com you’ll find a link to Nan’s talk about the importance of native grapes, and you can learn more about Nan and her other projects at:

Ethnobot.org and on Instagram at @successionalforest

Enjoy!

In the intro to this episode I introduce the new name of the podcast: Beyond Organic Wine Podcast. I also talk about the three weeks I've spent working with the crew of La Garagista, including Deirdre Heekin and Caleb Barber, and Camila Carrillo of La Montañela, and Anna Travers of Lilith Wines.

Should you get a chance to come to Vermont, you could not be more fortunate than to meet this crew – maybe coven is a better word – who make up the team here at La Garagista. Deirdre and Caleb, Camilla of La Montanuela, and Anna of Lilith Wines, I’ve had the honor to work alongside and learn from these lovely folks, both in the vineyard and winery, and I can’t say enough here to do justice to the amazing work that they are doing. Their commitment to an ecological approach to growing grapes and making wine is beautiful, inspiring, and delicious. If you haven’t listened to my previous interview with Deirdre Heekin, it’s pretty special. But also, her wines, and the wines of Lilith and La Montanuela are transformative. The wines are informed by deep passion and a seemingly preternatural ability to intuit what kinds of wines these grapes in these conditions want to become, all without any inputs other than cosmic energy and probably a little magic.

https://www.lagaragista.com/

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My guest for this episode is Mireia Pujol-Busquets, and she’s breeding the future of Catalonian grapes at her family’s estate vineyard just outside of Barcelona, Spain, called Alta Alella.

27% of the organic vineyards globally are in Spain, making Spain the country with the most organic vineyards in the world, by area. Mireia grew up on a vineyard that was organic from its inception in 1991, but she wanted to go her own way and follow her fascination with science. So instead of viticulture and oenology, she studied Biology at university, and then had two unique experiences working with agriculture in Thailand and Switzerland.

In Switzerland she got introduced to resistant hybrid grapes, piwis, and saw that if grapevines were allowed to reproduce sexually, instead of through cloning, they could evolve and adapt to the changes of nature. In contrast to the traditional vinifera grapes that her family grew organically – that needed to be constantly sprayed with copper and sulfur – she saw that grapes could be bred to need no sprays at all. As she looked to the legacy and the land that she would leave not only her children, but generations to come, she realized she needed to start the process of making viticulture something that improved the land, and as a farmer she saw the increasing need for more resistant and resilient vines that could survive in a rapidly more extreme climate.

So Mireia has started a project to breed the traditional vinifera varieties of Catalonia to produce resistant varieties that preserve the culture of her land, but that can be farmed without sprays of any kind, and that can withstand the increasingly extreme weather conditions. Her project is called the Resistant and Autochthonous Varieties Adapted to Climate Change (VRIAACC, acronym in Spanish). With resistant varieties of grapes and the elimination of the need to spray, she will reduce compaction, reduce emissions, create a healthier environment for humans and animals working in and around the vineyard, and reduce losses due to fungal infestations.

https://altaalella.wine/

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his episode is a special update on the 2023 vintage at my "estate” winegarden - Crenshaw Cru - in Los Angeles, where we lost essentially the entire crop to powdery mildew this year despite regular organic treatments and canopy management.

But more than that, this episode is a call for an honest assessment of the vine species upon which we base our global wine industry: vitis vinifera. The truth is that it is inferior in almost every way possible, and can no longer even claim superiority of flavors, to other grapes that have been hybridized in recent years. It has become a drag on our resources, our creativity, and our joy, and it’s time to explode the narrow box - the coffin - that we’ve put wine in for far too long. It’s time to eradicate prejudice and bring wine back to life with a diversity of wine cultures.

My guest for this episode is Gizem Duyar of Kerasus Wine. Gizem lives and makes wine in Turkey from “married vines.” That are over a century old. A married vine is a vine that has been wrapped to a tree, grown with the tree, and lives symbiotically with a tree as its support structure. It is likely the most ancient form of viticulture because it is simply mimicking how vines grow naturally without human intervention. This was the original vitiforestry. Because of this relationship with its partner tree, the vine gets many benefits that Gizem discusses.

There’s something so special about this relationship that Gizem has committed to making a very traditional form of natural wine in amphora that she has altered to include a unique technique for keeping the wine amber or orange wine while including both white and red grapes. She adds nothing and removes nothing to the wine so that it can reflect that special expression of the relationship between the vine and tree. She calls the wine Melez, which is the Turkish word for hybrid. It describes her winemaking process, but it also takes on a much more literal meaning when you discover that the red grape she blends with is a hybrid grape from America that has been living in Turkey for over 100 years.

Turkey has an ancient winemaking tradition that has fallen out of popularity lately for social and political reasons. It is home to thousands of indigenous varieties of vitis vinifera, and it has also lost thousands of acres of vineyards in recent years. Turkey’s neighbor, Georgia, gets a lot of attention in US wine circles, and it should, but once you start digging into Turkey you’ll find as much as three Georgia’s worth of wine culture… It’s incredibly rich in wine history. After all, both countries have been at it for about 8000 years, from times before the borders or the names Georgia and Turkey meant anything.

Westside Winos - Drinking Local At Offhand Wine Bar

My guests for this episode are my friends, my neighbors, and my bosses, Khalil Kinsey, Teron Steveonson, and Justin Leathers. Collectively they are known as the Westside Winos, and they own Offhand Wine Bar where I work a couple nights each week, and we talk about why Offhand is special, and why it shouldn't be. Offhand serves only West Coast (of the US) natural wine, meaning almost every wine by the glass is both organically farmed and from California. It is unique in this sense in Los Angeles, and extremely rare in the US. But why is there so seldom a focus on local wine in America?

During this conversation I introduce the guys to six very special wines from all over the US as we try to answer that important question, and they talk about how they are re-writing the script at Offhand.

https://www.offhandwinebar.com/

Wineries represented:

https://www.centralaswine.com/

https://www.fingerlakesciderhouse.com/

https://www.dearnativegrapes.com/

https://www.wildtexaswines.com/

https://kesselringvineyard.wordpress.com/

And after recording:

https://redbyrdorchardcider.com/

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My guest for this episode is Etelle Higonnet. Etelle is a graduate of Yale Law school and she spent her early career working on some war crimes tribunals, and with Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International. She then shifted focus from human rights to environmental protection and worked with Green Peace focusing on, among other things, ceasing global deforestation. She continued her focus on stopping deforestation as Campaigns Director at Mighty Earth, and ultimately began to shift her attention from just stopping deforestation to beginning to rebuild global forests through agroforestry. She is a founding member of the Sustainable Wine Roundtable, and has become a vitiforestry enthusiast and is compiling an online vitiforestry library, for the SWR, of every publicly available peer-reviewed study published about vitiforestry as a resource for anyone considering the possibility of introducing agroforestry into their viticulture. She has graciously allowed me to link to this library – while it is still in development - from the episode page on Organic Wine Podcast.com.

Etelle discusses the many benefits of vitiforestry, and the many ways trees can be incorporated in and around vines.

https://swroundtable.org/

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When we think of the word “forever” I think most of us think of it as a single concept, related to time. “Forever is a long time,” we say. And if we think about the actions we take now, the choices we make on a daily basis, having consequences that last forever, this is a profound and humbling consideration.

But after speaking with Gelert Hart of AmByth Estate winery, I gained a new insight into Forever, because that’s what AmByth means. In Welsh, AmByth is two words though, and you’ll notice the B is capitalized in the winery’s name. So I began to ask, what if the Welsh Forever contains a deeper insight by making this idea two words? For Ever. In other word, it’s not just about time. It implies that there is something that we are giving to the future. It reminds me of gift giving. The world we build now is the gift that those who come after us will find under their tree.

The work that I do, the way I manage my life, the way I manage land, the ideas I spread and support, are not just the means I use to survive… they are gifts for: ever. For everyone and everything that comes after me. In this way, forever becomes a meditation on what kinds of gifts I want to leave for ever. Will the ever after me be as delighted to find the world that I created as I was to find the gifts tagged “For: Adam” by my parents?

How would this perspective of gift giving change our relationship with our metaphoric children… those who follow ever after us?

In the case of AmByth, it means that their vineyards are head-trained & dry-farmed on steep hillsides since planting, certified organic and biodynamic, and biodiverse with inter-plantings of olive trees in the vineyard and chickens and sheep (with a protective llama) rotating through their land. AmByth is the first winery to make Demeter certified biodynamic wine in Paso Robles, and to respect this farming they make all of their wines without adding to or taking away anything away from the grapes.

And they do all of this not only for practical reasons related to ecosystem and wine quality enhancement – though those are also benefits. They do it because it makes life more joyful and more beautiful.

Gelert and I discuss the role beauty has in this idea of For: Ever, and we get into some very big questions. I was in the middle of reading Sacred Economics by Charles Eisenstein when I recorded this with Gelert, and the next day I came across these lines from one of the final chapters:

“When I drive through American suburbia with its fast food restaurants, enormous boxy stores, and cookie-cutter subdivisions, or look upon the architecture of modern office buildings and residential high-rises, I cannot help but marvel at the ugliness of it all.

…I marvel, with indignation bordering on outrage, that we can live in such an ugly world after thousands of years of advances in material technology. Are we really so poor that we can afford no better? What was the point of all this sacrifice, all this destruction…

…we have created a material world devoid of soul, barren of life and killing of life. All for what? The pursuit of efficiency, the grand project of maximizing the production of commodities, and underneath that, the domination and control of life. This was to be the paradise of technology, life under control, and finally we see it for what it is: the strip mall, the robotic cashier, the endless parking lot, the extermination of the wild, the living, the messy, and the sacred.”

It probably goes without saying, but I highly recommend this book if you haven’t read it.

When I look at the dominant wine culture – the global monoculture that blindly believes in its own superiority – I see a wine culture built around the pursuit of efficiency, the grand project of maximizing the production of commodities. But what if we began to build our wine cultures around beauty? What if we designed our farms to inspire wonder? What if we tried with wine to embody peacefulness, embrace diversity, enhance connections, and honor the complex community of living beings that we are part of? How would this change the way wine looks?

I’ve begun to think about these questions more and more, and they are beginning to change the way I grow fruit and make and sell wine… really they’re reshaping everything that I do.

I’m very grateful to Gelert for this conversation which inspired me further down this path, and for his family’s stewardship of a beautiful piece of this earth as a gift for: ever.

My guest for this episode is Deborah Parker Wong – the co-editor, with Pam Strayer, of Slow Wine USA.

Centralas, my winery, is honored to be listed in the Slow Wine guide. I say honored, because Slow Wine is unique in the entire realm of wine scoring or recommendation guides in that it takes into account the ecological context of the wine that they recommend.

All other wine scoring and recommendation guides reflect the problem that plagues wine in general – that is the problem of disconnection. When wine reviewers and guides give a 100 point score to a wine, what does that tell you about the way that the fruit was grown? What does it tell you about the way that winery conducts it business, treats its employees, manages its land, or interacts with its community? It tells you nothing about these things. Yet aren’t these things vitally important to the “greatness” of a wine? Can a wine be great if it tastes amazing yet poisons children in nearby schools? And I use this example of poisoning children because it is an actual example from both Napa and Bordeaux. Our disconnection from the context of wine is the only reason we revere 100 point scores that are based on the flavor of a wine, rather than think them ridiculous.

I tried to point this out at one point by creating the Ecological Wine Score, as a comprehensive, yet satirical take on giving a wine a score that is actually meaningful, and all that would have to be considered. You can see this at EcologicalWineScore.com

Slow Wine and the Slow Wine Snail of Approval reconnect wine to it context in a human community and living ecosystem, and Deborah walks us through how it does this. We talk about the Slow Wine Manifesto, which I’ll make available on the episode page at OrganicWinePodcast.com, and we talk about the research that is required to get behind some of the green façade that wineries rely on, and understand the complex practices that no one certification can capture. So much more goes into a wine than just its sensory evaluation or a biodynamic certification.

Just for fun we talk about Drops of God which we don’t spoil if you haven’t seen it, and we talk about how the common idea of wine – you know, the Euro-centric monoculture that has been spread around the globe through capitalist imperialism – is actually not going down so well among young folks. Crazy, right?

A big thanks to Deborah for this fun and engaging conversation, and for letting us know about Slow Wine.

https://slowfoodusa.org/

Snail of Approval

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My guest for this episode is Dave Carr of Raging Cider and Mead, and he’s helping to redefine what cider can be and where it can come from. Dave makes cider in San Diego County… and for those of you unfamiliar with California, that’s south of me. We often look north for great cider cultures, and I’ll admit that’s why it took me so long to have Dave on the podcast, but it turns out there’s an old, very special, and pretty outstanding cider culture just over an hour south of Los Angeles… in fact, once you hear Dave’s description of growing cider here you may begin to see it as one of the BEST places to grow cider.

I don’t want to give too much away but you’re going to find out about a unique population of banana slugs, the rich apple and pear history of gold rush town Julian, CA where Dave is helping rebuild and regenerate old, historic and neglected orchards, a seedling pear name Screaming Weasel, a perry named Perry Feral, the Quest for the Palomar Giant, sweet meads, cysers, and pyments, Dave’s approach to orchard polyculture including cover cropping with collards, composting with mushrooms and mulching with spent mushroom substrate, alley cropping with asparagus, beans, and squash, as well as looking on the bright side of orchard pests and how to manage them.

In addition to renewing legacy orchards and farming his home orchard and other local orchards in a beyond organic way, Dave is caretaking old, historic orchards for a local tribe council that preserves land from development, and he’s trying to develop locally adapted seedling apples and pears to create a uniquely Southern California cider culture. You’ll hear about all this and more, and how you can taste his diverse array of natural, regional ciders, meads, and co-ferments at his taproom in San Marcos.

https://www.ragingcidermead.com/

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Centralas Wine

This is the second part of the special in-person, on-site conversation that I had in June of 2023 (just a few weeks ago as I write this) with Mike Biltonen of Know Your Roots. Please check out part 1 for Mike’s full bio, and for a fantastic episode about holistic orchard culture within a biodynamic context.

On this episode we leave Mike’s Apostrophe Orchard and enter the forest that surrounds it. We leave the realm of the known, the controlled, the cultivated, and enter the realm of questions, of curiosity, of the unexplored. The pace changes, the energy shifts, and the conversation evolves. I invite you to take this walk with us, but the suggestion I make is this: Don’t enter the forest. Become it.

The forest is the source of the orchard, the source of the vines and vineyard. It is also our source. Our bodies and lives, our cultures, grow out of nature, out of the wild. When I speak of developing a more ecological wine culture, I’m essentially talking about ecomimicry, biomimicry, or just emulating the forest ecosystem more closely with our cultures.

Along this walk we discover amazing wild vines and talk of wineforests and vitiforestry. We speak of the need for further research into plant communication and energetics. We observe the values that the forest manifests in its multiple diverse and interconnected forms, and how these differ from and could be better incorporated into our production-oriented farming. We ask how to embrace beauty in our viticulture and pomiculture, along with ecological integration and economic viability.

At a time when we now see the effect that industrial food and beverage production system has, not just on what we eat and drink, but on the human psyche, and on gaia, Mike asks us to begin to consider the integration of secular and esoteric science. While he affirms the importance of data and statistics, he asks how we can marry those with our observations of nature that often give us better intuitive insights. Mike suggests that the more time we spend in nature, on our farms, in our vineyards and orchards, without the intentions of productivity and economic extraction, the better our observations become and the better our science becomes.

I’ve recently started reading a book that I’m already sure will be added to the reading list at OrganicWinepodcast.com. It’s called The Biology of Wonder by Andreas Weber, and this bit from his introduction, Towards a Poetic Ecology, seems to really fit this episode:

Also, Mike and I have done a fair bit of name-dropping in these two episodes, and I want to give shout outs to some of the great New York producers who informed various ideas and observations and experiences mentioned here: Alfie and Deanna at Dear Native Grapes in the Catskills, Autumn and Ezra at Eve’s Cider in Van Etten, Deva and Eric at Redbyrd Orchard Cider in Trumansburg, and Charlie and Josh of the brand-spanking-new Sylvan Farm in Hammondsport. Get to know these folks and their ciders and wines. There’s a reason we mentioned them.

And now, let’s become the forest.

Enjoy!

My guest for this episode is Mike Biltonen.

Mike is the co-owner, with his wife, of Know Your Roots, an orchard and vineyard consultation and management business in the Northeast US. Mike has spent almost 40 years working with orchards, vineyards, and other specialty crops. He’s farmed in Virginia, Minnesota, Vermont, California, and New York. Over the past 20 years his passion for sustainable agriculture has evolved into a profound dedication to the principles and practices of ecologically focused, biodynamic agricultural. He serves as the president of the Josephine Porter Institute for Applied Biodynamics. For the last 15 years Mike has consulted for orchardists and farmers while also operating his own biodynamically enlivened orchard and mushroom operation in central New York. He keeps alive the legacy of his friend, the late Michael Phillips, and helps maintain Phillips’ Holistic Orchard Network.

This was a very special conversation for me for many reasons, not the least of which was because it was the first in-person interview I’ve done on location. Mike was gracious enough to spend a morning guiding me through his newly established Apostrophe Orchard. As we walk through the trees and other plants, Mike gives us an incredible tour of an orchard established and maintained ecologically with the principles and practices of biodynamics, and a permaculture perspective. You’ll hear the sounds of birds and orchard life all around us in the background as we talk. Since this happened within the context of the freeze event that left no fruit on the trees of Apostrophe Orchard, we discuss what the future of pomiculture and agriculture might look like from both a big perspective and a technical holistic orchard care perspective. The conversation culminates in a discussion of “high frequency beverages” and how human energy has a vital impact on the farm environment and its products.

And this is just part one! In part two, to be released soon, we leave the orchard and walk into the forest… and the conversation becomes influenced by things more ancient, primal, mystical, and even magical by the end… So stay tuned, and … Enjoy!

https://knowyouroots.com/index.html

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My guest for this episode is Brent Mayeaux of Stagiaire Wines. Brent makes zero-zero wines with a lot of heart and hard work on Treasure Island in the San Francisco Bay. This year Brent also organized and held the Wine From Here wine fair, with help from several other people of course. I’m very impressed with the humility that he embraces with the name of his winery: Stagiaire – the Apprentice. WE never really if we continue to seek and follow our curiosity and passion to make better wine. We will always have more to learn, and I love that Brent owns that with his brand. I also love Brent’s desire for and commitment to honesty and bringing the highest level of integrity with his wine making. And I of course value his promotion and support of making wine a local, farm-to-table experience.

Now this episode has a back story. We recorded an entire episode before this which I decided not to release. I thought I had done a disservice to you and to Brent by drawing him out about some of the discouraging and frustrating aspects of being a winemaker today in California, and elsewhere. However, in addition to those negative elements, there were some good and practically helpful things too, and tons of information and a fun conversation. So I’ve released this original conversation on patreon as “subscribers only” content. If you’d like to support this podcast and listen to that previous conversation, here's the link to our patreon channel where you can subscribe, and visit the "support" page at OrganicWinePodcast.com.

https://www.stagiairewine.com/

https://winefromherefair.com/

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My guest is Marcelo Castro Vera of Octágono, one of a few natural wines in Mexico and the only winery nationwide that ferments in clay vessels buried in the ground. They don't have electricity in the winery, so the whole winemaking process is done by hand. They add zero sulfites to their wine. They also produce artisanal mezcal. The agaves are cooked in earth pits using fallen wood, crushed with a stone tahona using spring water to extract sugars, fermented naturally with no yeast or additional sugars added in wooden vats, distilled in copper stills. They also produce beer, mead, cider, and distilled prickly pear alcohol.

I love Marcelo's thinking about how doing all the winemaking by hand creates jobs for more people, and that he sees this as the goal of the winery rather than getting rich. I hope you are inspired by him to think about what wine could become by eliminating some of the things we take for granted.

@octagonomx

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Sponsors:

Centralas Wine

Catavino Tours

Oom - recycled bottles for wine

VT Vineyards

Let them know you heard about them through the Organic Wine Podcast.

My guest for this episode is Dan Durica, and when I asked him about what inspires the work he does, he essentially credited limitations for his inspirations. What if we couldn’t throw fossil fuels at our problems? What if we eliminated the easy solutions we’ve relied on for the past 80 years? What if you couldn’t use fossil fuels to make or sell your wine? No driving, no electricity, no chemical sprays and fertilizers or diesel farm equipment? Answering these what ifs would inevitably cause us to arrive at a very local wine culture in both scale and reach. Putting these limitations on ourselves would make us more resourceful, creative, ecological, and adaptive in our thinking.

Dan lives in a unique community called Dancing Rabbit Ecovillage in Missouri where he also farms a no-spray, poly-culture vineyard built on the principles of permaculture. He also produces and hosts the Hardcore Sustainable Youtube channel where you’ll find a lot of helpful info about living and growing vines without fossil fuels and get to see what Dan is doing.

Dan also mentioned how far our understanding of what the best agriculture is has grown so much in the last twenty years that the idea of “organic” is kind of outdated. I couldn’t agree more. I’ve joked multiple times about changing the name of this podcast, and that may actually happen soon… when I have a spare minute to redo the entire online infrastructure that it relies on. So… for now it will stay the Organic Wine Podcast… but know that in my heart, and in everything it stands for, it is so much more.

After recording, Dan and I spoke a bit longer and he also proposed the idea that, historically, vineyard establishment has probably taken much longer than it does now. Vineyards were likely integrated into a local ecosystem over decades, rather than years, and thought of as an intergenerational project. Finding vines and other fruit that thrive without sprays can take years of selection, and even breeding. Building fertility and resilience into a vineyard takes years of ecosystem enhancement. I hope to be able to reach back out to Dan in a few years and see how the development of his vineyard has come along.

Also, we both talk about how the future we face will require us to stop thinking of ourselves as grape growers or apple growers or any single vineyard or orchard system managers, and start becoming polyculture farmers who grow a diversity of dozens of crops, and who build a business plan based on much less than 100% production. In California we have just lived through one of if not the wettest winters on record, and that’s following one of, if not the, driest years on record. The northeast US just had the awful combination of an unseasonably warm April followed by a multi-day freeze in May, which devastated the vineyards and orchards.

What Dan is doing, even though on a smaller scale, is an example of what is possible in even the most difficult growing conditions, when you approach wine with a different mindset.

https://www.dancingrabbit.org/

https://www.youtube.com/@HardcoreSustainable/videos

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Sponsors:

Centralas Wine

Catavino Tours

Oom - recycled bottles for wine

VT Vineyards

Let them know you heard about them through the Organic W

My guest for this episode is Xaime Niembro, of Vinos Barrigones. Vinos Barrigones translates to “Paunchy Wines” in English, though Google will translate it to “Pot-bellied wines.” And you’ll hear Xaime’s hilarious story of how the name Barrigon became the name for their wines and aesthetic.

Xaime is using his Vinos Barrigones to regenerate his family’s 6.5 hectare or 16 acre vineyard near Queretaro, Mexico. Queretaro is just a bit more than an hour north of Mexico City, and quality viticulture is possible here at this southern latitude because of the high elevation 1800 meters or close to 6000 feet above sea level. Of course that brings some unique challenges as well, and Xaime gives us a great explanation of how he makes wine with the climate to fit his culture and cuisine perfectly.

We also talk briefly about the ciders Xaime is making, and Mezcal, which is where Xaime got his start in fermented beverages. One of the insights Xaime offered that has made me appreciate Mezcal much more than I did was its possibility to express terroir. Unlike grain spirits, which are made with an annual crop, Mezcal is made from a perennial plant that lives in the soil for years – sometimes decades – before harvest. This new way of seeing and appreciating Mezcal has strangely affected my pallet, and Ive found myself actually enjoying it for the first time. I have a decent bottle at home, of course, this is Los Angeles, but I’ve negelected it in my cabinet for years. After this interview I immediately poured a glass for myself … and loved every drop, and mezcal has been the only liquor I’ve ordered at a bar since. So there you go… a little mind pallet connection magic was made possible thanks to Xaime.

So a big thanks to Xaime for expanding my world, and for being the first Mexican wine producer on the podcast. There’s an old and vibrant and growing wine culture in Mexico, and I hope to share more producers with you soon.

Amy Lee – Oom co-founder - Solving Wine’s Biggest Problem

This is a special episode. More than an episode, it’s a direct request to all of you listening right now. Here’s the request: let’s solve the glass bottle problem right now.

If you’ve been listening to this podcast recently, the name Oom should be familiar to you. They’re a sponsor of this podcast, and they are a company based here in my fair city that is tackling the bottle re-use challenge head on. They have begun collecting, de-labeling, cleaning and sanitizing wine bottles to re-sell. They’ve encountered some problems that they can’t solve on their own… they need you. Or really, we all need each other. As you listen to this conversation with Oom co-founder Amy Lee, you’ll see what I mean. Amy wants Oom to help eliminate single use packaging across all industries.

The scope of this conversation is mainly focused on California, but this is a conversation that needs to happen and is happening everywhere. The reason I wanted to get this conversation out to you is because any of us trying to do this anywhere will encounter the same problems, and sharing these problems and their potential solutions as a global community of winemakers and wine lovers will move all of these efforts forward toward solutions much more quickly.

The main issues come down to two things that all of us listening can help make happen: first, we need to use label materials that can be removed without chemical processes, and second, we need to agree on just a handful of standard bottle shapes and colors that we all use if we buy new glass.

Why do we need to do this? Why is this conversation not only important, but urgent? Because glass is far and away the biggest source of emissions for the wine industry, and re-using bottles can drastically reduce the emissions associated with producing and using new glass.

Also, most wine bottles do not get recycled in the US. Those of you listening in Europe do much better with your recycling, but in the US we recycle less than 31% of our wine bottles. And the bad news about recycling glass is that it produces a lot of emissions to heat glass to close to 3000 degrees Fahrenheit so that it can be re-molded.

My hope is that those of you listening now can choose to alter your bottle and label purchasing behavior immediately to begin to facilitate a transition to a re-use system. If you’re not a wine producer, tell your favorite producers about this opportunity. Let them know you’d like them to embrace these bottling choices and that you’d not only be okay with it, you’d love it. If you’re a wine maker, get everyone at your custom crush onto the same bottles and labels. Spread this podcast and this message to everyone you know in wine. Because it will take all of us, and we’ll need to work with the glass producers too.

I was at a local wine fair yesterday here in Los Angeles for natural wine producers. I think every producer and supporter there was philosophically receptive to this kind of change, but what was lacking was a moment in the center of that event where someone called everyone in attendance to attention and rallied us all together as community of like-minded individuals who have a lot of power to make that change happen, and appeal to us to take action to make this happen. This is that appeal.

And if you are hosting or organizing an event or know someone who is, please consider structuring that moment into your festival. Whether it’s to instigate action to create a bottle re-use program, or a three-minute appeal to make any other change happen that we desperately need to make, I’m beginning to feel like these festivals are missed opportunities to do something important.

We have linear systems in place right now. Linear systems can only exist if we assume the earth’s resources are infinite, if we assume that we can continue to take without giving back. We all know this assumption is tragically wrong – linear systems all have dead ends, and so it’s time to set up a new circular system based on the assumption that our world and its resources are precious and finite and require us to give back on the same level at which we take. This conversation is about how we start to do that.

Prepare to go on a magical, and at times hilarious, journey to a special place on earth.

Your guide on this journey is Jess Hopwood, and she has a lot of experience spoiling voyagers with amazing trips. She has been, among other things, a flight attendant on private jets, a butler on luxury yachts, and now runs Farm to Glass Wine Tours in the Okanagan Valley of British Columbia. The Okanagan is that special place on earth. The furthest north location on the planet with a hot Mediterranean climate, the Okanagan centers on a lake that runs 81 miles north to south and is surrounded by beautiful towns, towering mountains, Mediterranean blue lakes, and wine. I have to admit that I was woefully ignorant of this area, but it has jumped to the top of my list of wine regions to visit thanks to Jess.

Jess guides us through the climate, the scenery, the history, and some of the amazing people, farming, and wines that can be found in the Okanagan. This is by no means an exhaustive accounting of producers who are doing great farming and making amazing fermentations. The Okanagan is a large and diverse region with much more to be discovered, but I think you’ll be enchanted even by just this short day trip.

Jess visited me on a recent trip to LA and brought some unique wines from the Naramata sub-region of the Okanagan, and we discuss these wines and their producers, and the beauty of this place where vines grow on benchland cliffs over the lake, and the land was named for a famous smile. The Okanagan is at the forefront of organic, or better, agriculture, in Canada, and Jess focuses on small, local producers who do great farming. At the end of the day, before a final refreshing dip in the lake, Jess takes us on a quick trip up the Similkameen – a river valley with sheer mountain walls that flows into the Okanagan and is known as the organic capital of Canada.

https://farmtoglasswinetours.ca/

Support this episode by subscribing via patreon.

Sponsors:

Centralas Wine

Catavino Tours

Oom - recycled bottles for wine

VT Vineyards

Let them know you heard about them through the Organic Wine Podcast.

Master Sommelier David Keck discovered his love for wine while pursuing a career—and traveling the world—as an opera singer. He has a Master of Music Degree from Rice University, an undergraduate degree in English and Comparative Literature from Columbia University and attended Juilliard for opera performance.

After years of bartending and working in hospitality between operatic gigs, David took his first sommelier course with the Court of Master Sommeliers in 2010 and decided to make the career change. David was named one of Food & Wine’s Sommeliers of the Year in 2016, and passed his Master Sommelier exam later that year, making him the 149th American Master Sommelier and the 233rd in the world. He was awarded the StarChefs Rising Stars Restaurateur of the Year award in 2019. He has presented seminars for the Court of Master Sommeliers, GuildSomm, Vine Society, and numerous other educational organizations, as well as being a featured presenter at events such as the Aspen Food & Wine Classic, Pebble Beach Food & Wine, Nantucket Food & Wine, and many others. He is a sought-after wine judge for competitions both nationally and abroad.

Since going full-force into the hospitality field, he has worked in every aspect of the beverage industry: He has opened restaurants, wine bars, honky-tonks and retail shops, worked as a sales rep. and directed wine programs for distribution companies, and now farms a vineyard and makes wine with hybrid grapes in the mountains of his home state, Vermont, under the label Stella 14 with his partner Lauren.

https://www.stella14wines.com/

Support this episode by subscribing via patreon.

This is a winemaker’s episode, and I just realized – to my satisfaction – that the vast majority of this podcast focuses on the farming of wine. Since I’m at around 10% in the cellar and 90% in the vinyorchard in terms of my focus, I tried to make up for lost cellar time with this episode.

My guest is Clark Smith. Clark has been making and studying wine since the 1970’s. He’s had a huge influence on the wine world through his wine consulting business, and in 2013 he published the book Postmodern Winemaking. Ten years later, that book is still groundbreaking.

Clark knows more than you do about the chemistry of winemaking. In addition to that, he’ll tell you he has a bit of an ego. He may say some things that rub you the wrong way. He may say some things that you find hard to believe. He may say some things that contradict everything you know. But he may also say some things that enlighten you and revolutionize your winemaking. There really isn’t a way to pigeon-hole him. Clark is candid, transparent, a bit of a pot-stirrer, and in pursuit of the most soulful wine he can make.

In the past he has been the whipping boy for the natural wine press, partly for his embrace of new technologies, and partly for his willingness to confront hype with science. Depending on your convictions, you can fault him or thank him for introducing Reverse osmosis and micro-oxygenation to America, but you cannot fault him for concealing his use of techniques or technologies in his winemaking… which is more than I can say for some who claim to make natural wine. You may disagree with him, but make sure you understand him before you dismiss him.

We cover A LOT of ground in this conversation, including:

What wine really is – the googe-ness of wine

Minerality comes from living soil

Why brix has nothing to do with ripeness, and how determining ripeness takes a personal relationship with a vineyard

Why watering back wine increases its aromatic and color intensity

Why he makes his best wines without sulfites, and how everything that’s common knowledge about sulfites in wine is wrong

Why Brettanomyces is a hospital disease, and why a living wine with good structure beats it.

Wine Diamonds

White Wine making

Sweet Wine making

And Much more.

Buckle in… maybe grab a note pad… and

Enjoy!