My guest for this episode is Steve Matthiasson. This is the second time I’ve interviewed Steve, so I highly recommend listening to the first episode from about three years ago if you haven’t. Steve is the eponymous dude behind Matthiasson Wines, and maybe dude is the wrong title for Steve. He might be more of a punk rebel organic evangelist operating from inside the Cabernet Curtain in the heart of Napa Valley. Surprisingly for this podcast, you’re going to hear praise for James Suckling AND The Mondavi Family, and a hopeful outlook for classical wines in California despite climate change. But much more importantly, and less surprisingly, you’re going to hear numerous incredibly helpful technical vitiultural insights into how to farm grapes organically to make fresh, vibrant wines in an increasingly hotter world. Once again, I recommend getting out your notepad and pencil for this one.

What is the role of death and disease in regenerative winegrowing, regenerative viticulture, regenerative agriculture?

How do we cope with the necessity to kill in order to live?

What does our relationship with rodents say about what it means to be human?

What does a vole infestation in a vineyard tell us about life and death?

Do humans have a vole infestation or do voles have a human infestation? This and other questions from this episode may haunt your dreams and have you wondering if maybe "regenerative winegrowing" is an oxymoron. 

The big question of Part 2 of the Death In The Vineyard mini-series is "What are the regenerative solutions to all the things that want to eat our wine crops?"

In trying to answer this question Part 2 looks at the cultural assumptions, language, beliefs, and prejudices that inform the way we currently see and relate to all of the lives that feed on our vines and trees. 

Get ready to take a wrecking ball to your ideas about Integrated Pest Management, not to mention your assumptions about snakes. 

Additionally, you'll get a list of practical tactics for preventing or stopping vole infestations or other plagues of rodents. 

Don't listen to this episode unless you're ready to be a global leader in regenerative winegrowing and regenerative agriculture in general. 

We’re going back to Michigan for this episode to talk to Andrew Backlin, the production mangager / winemaker of Modales Wines in Fenville Michigan. You may have heard Andrew’s voice already if you listened to the first part of my special Death In the Vineyard series.

Andrew tells the story of Modales’ transition from conventional wine production just four years ago, to fully organic for the last three years and now certified… growing mostly vinifera. Their vineyard went from dead, round-up nuked hardpan with basically zero organic matter, to living, thriving, healthy soils with worms and a 400% increase in organic matter. You can hear in his voice and enthusiasm that his participation in regenerating this ecosystem has lit him up, and it’s infectious.

On the other hand, he also doesn’t shy away from mentioning the big problems that still face winegrowers who want to do the right thing but who have inherited a large investment in vinifera in a temperate, humid climate that was made possible by chemistry.

I want to mention just one of those issues as a call to action. Andrew at one point mentions the fact that because something like 95% of the wine in the US comes from the west coast where we don’t face problems like black rot, very little research and investment has gone into organic controls for black rot specifically, and it is the main Achilles heel of organic viticulture in humid climates. While I of course think grape breeding should be a primary effort to solve this and other fungal issues, the reality is that many hybrids also have issues with black rot, and there are very few hybrids that can tolerate this fungus in very wet years. And Andrew brings up several other great points about why better organic sprays are necessary given the current wine culture… unless the USDA wants to invest millions of dollars on marketing to create a new wine culture that’s not chauvinistic toward hybrids.

Come to think of it, the USDA could sponsor this podcast to help with that effort…

A few other important things to know about Andrew… he’s a California native who moved to Michigan for wine. He gave me the inspiration and gentle kick in the butt to create the Beyond Organic Wine google group for anyone who is learning and trying to farm and make wine in more ecological, better than organic ways … and if you’d like to join, just log into google go to groups and search beyondorganicwine all one word with no spaces and ask to join. It’s a low key vibe community… no one is trying to sell anything, but we’re there when you have questions or important discoveries to share… and the more the merrier, healthier, and better at farming and winemaking we will be. So we hope to connect with you there.

As Andrew talks us through both the hopes and the realities of transitioning to organic vinifera viticulture in his climate, there’s as much to learn as be inspired by. Enjoy.

I experienced a vole infestation in a vineyard for the first time, and it has devastated my understanding of regenerative viticulture. In this first of a multi-part series called Death In the Vineyard, I talk to experts and winegrowers from all over the US about this adorable little creature, the vole, and the massive impact it has had historically and ecologically in our wine landscapes. As I follow the threads of truth that unravel before the voracious voles, they reveal some gaping holes in the fabric of our regenerative ideology. This episode and the ones to follow in this mini-series will question some of your most cherished beliefs and ideals about regenerative wine. If the regenerative movement is to survive, I believe we need to begin answering the questions that voles are asking of us. 

This episode and the others in this series took a lot of work to produce. If you'd like to support or sponsor them financially, this would be incredibly helpful to enabling me to continue to do this kind of investigating and reporting. 

You Can Support this podcast by subscribing via patreon.

Or by donating or taking action at:

Beyond Organic Wine

“Thinking like a vine,” is a motto that Paul Rolt and Jemma Vickers of Hebron Vineyard in Wales, UK farm by. Hebron Vineyard is the first vineyard in Wales — and the UK — to be Certified Regenerative by A Greener World (AGW). Paul and Jemma use no sprays or off-farm inputs to grow their vines – zero zero farming which preceeds the same kind of zero zero, raw and living winemaking. To do this they focus on creating optimal health and growing conditions for their Rondo and Solaris piwi varieties of grapes by using what is available on site. In considering what might be optimal for a vine, they implemented an arbustrum and have grown vines for four years in a living willow tree trellis system. The design of this system is ingenious and inspired by ancient practices. Willow has unique advantages both below and above ground, and Paul and Jemma’s vineyard is just one of the many styles of vitiforestry that showcase the deep and multi-layered benetfits of married vine polycultures.

The biggest critique that I can imagine for this kind of approach to wine growing is that it can’t be commercial because some years you won’t get a crop. When I asked Paul and Jemma about the problems of farming wine this way, they admitted they have limits. They know them and know they must work within them. That’s very different than the persptive that sees limits as problems that must be overcome by any means necessary, though. Both of those mindsets have consequences. In Paul and Jemma’s case they have prioritized ecological and psychological health, beauty and biodiversity, family and quality of life, and long-term resilience and independence.

@hebronvineyard

https://www.hebronvineyard.com/

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An epic conversation with David Bos of @BosWine in Michigan, so I’m going to keep this intro short. Dave is a fantastic ambassador for Michigan wine, and yet he spent more than a decade growing and making wine organically and biodynamically in Napa Valley first. So his enthusiasm seems well informed, and I hope you find it as infectious as I did. Seen through Dave’s eyes, Michigan sounds pretty exciting. Even more importantly to me Dave is a fantastic ambassador for biodynamic and organic viticulture, so this conversation is LOADED.

https://www.boswine.com/

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I’m delighted to share this conversation with Eduard and Stephanie Tscheppe of Gut Oggau in Burgenland in Austria. 17 years ago they started making decisions about how to farm and make wine that were not popular or even understandable to most of the wine world. It was a huge risk, maybe even a little foolish, and because of it, I don’t think it’s an exaggeration to say, they became one of the most loved and respected natural wine brands in the world, with unique approaches to nearly everything they do with wine. We talk about biodynamics, high density vine plantings, the magic of farming with horses, the creation of culture as agriculteurs, wine personalities, hybrids and ecological approaches to grape growing, planting trees and other perennials in, between, and around vines, making wine the same way the wine is farmed, the price and the cost of wine, the beauty of diversity, and so much more.

@gutoggau

https://www.gutoggau.com/

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Shelby Perkins farms grapes beyond organically in the Eola-Amity Hills of Oregon's Willamette Valley, and makes thoughtful wines of place. And speaking of thoughtful, Shelby seems to have lived several lives already. In one life she worked for the US Department of Energy doing technical research related to nuclear weapons and waste clean up. She was also once Science Policy Fellow at the National Academies, examining climate geoengineering. A trip to Antarctica changed her life and she began her life in wine and uncertainty and living in the outdoors. We talk about terrorist squirrels, climate change, what's going on behind the curtain, nuclear energy, growing grapes with voles, what to do about voles in the vineyard, renewable energy, biodynamic and organic viticulture, craving failure, how farming will kick your ass and save you, and how to transition from being a warrior to being an artisan. There's so much in this conversation because Shelby is a special person with a beautiful mind.

https://www.perkinsharter.com/philosophy

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It’s my pleasure to present this conversation with Robin Snowdon of Limeburn Hill Vineyard. Limeburn Hill Vineyard is an innovative, ecological vineyard near Chew Magna on the edge of Bristol. It is the only biodynamic vineyard in the south west of England, and one of only a handful in the UK. In addition to farming biodynamically, Robin and his partner Georgina Harvey have a vision of their farm as a nature preserve, and really want to approach the land as a living being that we can care for and also connect with. Robin talks of dancing grasses and trees and vines trellised at a height that little sheep can graze beneath, with foxes and rabbits and a vineyard full of wildflowers, and the attempt to build the system only with what grows naturally. He discusses having an intuitive, emotional connection with the land and our opportunity as farmers help it achieve its greatest potential. He talks about how integrating ruminants brings joy to the land and those who visit it, and how that joy translates into the wine. They’re growing some really interesting grapes, some hybrids that we don’t have here in the US. We talk about their winemaking and how their approach to not letting anything go to waste results in some really interesting approaches to wine... And how small is beautiful and sustainable in an approach to a wine business.

https://limeburnhillvineyard.co.uk/

@limeburnhill

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I’m really excited to share a conversation I had with Ariana Ross, a certified sommelier and the author of the book: Wine’s Way To Art: A Treatise on Wine as Art and Why Art is Something We Need to Be Human. It is such a pleasure to talk with Ariana because she has the unusual ability to entertain ideas and argue a perspective without getting her ego involved. Conversation is a tool that she uses to hone her own thinking and to move further down the path in the pursuit of truth. Because of that I could talk to her for hours, so this discussion feels to me like just the beginning of a much bigger conversation.

We delve into some pretty juicy topics including elitism in wine: how to separate that from expertise and acquired tastes and reverence, as well as questioning the idea of higher pleasures. We also ask whether it’s appropriate to refer to wine as art, and what it means for wine to be approached as an art. Among many questions discussed and unanswered, we discuss the importance of the canon of wine (one n, not two, as in the prime examples and archetypes) and whether a canon exists for other types of wine besides the commonly understood European grape wine. We don’t always agree, and that’s the fun of it…Ariana allowed us to explore these perennially important ideas through her book, which seems extremely timely, and the result was a dynamic and candid exchange that has left me looking forward to the next conversation.

@thesimplesomm

https://whoisariana.com/

Esther Park leads Cienega Capital, a private investment company that invests in food and farming enterprises that are helping to build a regenerative food system. This episode is about the unique criteria and ways of investing that Cienega Capital uses, and why it shouldn’t be so unique. If you are a regenerative farmer or if you are helping to build a regenerative food system – and I think Esther would include wine in this – you may be very interested to hear what Ester looks for in a good investment, and how you might become one. But everyone, whether you’re looking for a regenerative investment or not, should hear the questions Esther asks of all of us.

https://www.cienegacapital.com/

https://www.noregretsinitiative.com/

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This episode is about growing Vitis vinifera wine grapes without sprays. Yes, it is possible. My guest is Paul Vandenberg of Paradisos del Sol Winery in Washington state in the US’s Pacific Northwest, and he has been growing about 5 acres of vinifera with zero sprays since 2012. Beyond this pretty amazing achievement, Paul has a remarkable wine career. He started by making wine with blackberries, and has been making a living in wine since 1983. He was at Badger Mountain Vineyard when it became Washington’s first certified organic vineyard, and he was at Worden’s Winery to produce the first organic wine in the state. He was an organic gardener before he could walk, and so maybe it’s a fitting climax to his life’s work to figure out how eliminate pesticides, fungicides, and anyothericides, whether organic or not, from his vinifera vineyard completely. And he isn’t growing some obscure, special vinifera with super powers… they’re Cabernet Sauvignon, Chenin Blanc, Sangiovese, Riesling, Tempranillo, Zinfandel, and more. And teaching us how to grow vinifera without sprays is only one of a handful of incredibly valuable insights that Paul shares.

https://paradisosdelsol.com/

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My guest for this episode is Megan Bell of Margins Winery near Santa Cruz California, and this conversation may cause you to have strong emotional reactions at times. That’s not a trigger warning, it’s a tease. Megan has hot takes on just about every topic related to wine, and I’m not shy about asking her some big questions. Most of all I think you’ll come to love Megan’s honesty and openness about her struggles and visions, some of the financial and business realities of her winery operations, and the state of the wine industry from her perspective. Her candidness is refreshing, and her dreams are inspiring.

Daniel Hess is the owner of Convivium Imports, which has one of the largest Swiss wine portfolios in the US, as well as unique wines from lesser known producers practicing organic viticulture (at minimum) in lesser known regions all over Europe. The wine he imports to the US reflects his multi-cultural background and his desire to represent a greater diversity of producers who put great farming first in the wine import market.

https://conviviumimports.com/

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My guest for this episode is Ben Falk. If you don’t know Ben, he’s the author of The Resilient Farm and Homestead, 20 Years of Permaculture and Whole Systems Design, which I would describe as THE homesteading manual and is the result of decades of Ben’s life in Vermont designing, implementing, and maintaining regenerative polycultures systems.

Ben is very well known in the permaculture world, but isn’t known so much in the wine world… which seemed a shame to me, as he has immense practical knowledge to share that would be useful to those of us growing wine. We cover many topics, as usual, in this conversation. From the state of the world, to learning how to design your life to be able to spend more time working in the land. And we get practical about many aspects of growing and maintaining fruiting perennials… which is my catch all term for grapes, apples, pears, berries, etc that we use to make wine.

I’ve been thinking a lot about how owners of smaller vineyards can incorporate grazing, since the larger ruminants like sheep and cows are difficult to keep in any significant numbers without a good bit of land. Ben loves working with cows more than sheep, as it turns out, and has some great suggestions about how to protect your fruiting perennials from them. But we also dig into geese, which are also amazing grazers for smaller vineyards and orchards, and have their own nuances, as well as ducks, chickens, fencing, livestock guardian dogs, and more.

Also, Ben has some beautiful things to say about mead making and has very much inspired me to consider mead making.

Ben asks us to consider resilience in our winemaking. What kind of winegrowing and making can we continue to do indefinitely? What kind of wine makes our land continually healthier and more lush? What kind of winemaking makes our lives happier and more energetic? What kind of winemaking can continue to nourish us regardless of the changing whims and trends of the wine market? I think you’ll find that Ben has some great insights into answering these questions.

https://www.wholesystemsdesign.com/

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If you haven’t heard of Dr. Jonathan Lundgren and Ecdysis, you’re in for a treat. Jon is from the middle of this country and has seen the return of dust storms to our farmland. He was one of the most preeminent scientists in his field, but when he looked around at the farmland he passed as he drove through the Midwest, he saw that none of his achievements were making a difference. He wanted to effect positive change. Like most of you listening who see what is happening to your world, he wanted to make it better. So he did. I don’t want to over-hype him or the work he’s doing, but it may be unique in the history of the world. Ecdysis is undertaking one of, if not the largest science projects of its kind ever. Known as the 1000 farms initiative, the folks of Ecdysis visit and collect data from what will soon be over 1000 farms, including vineyards and orchards. Of course he isn’t doing this work alone. There’s a team of passionate, intelligent people who make this project possible. This data he has been collecting shows the ecological, economic, environmental, sociological, and psychological results of different types of farming practices. And as Jon and the Ecdysis team collect more and more data over more and more years, the results provide an avalanche of evidence that not only makes it clear that regenerative agriculture is the solution, but also provides the basis for policy and laws to change and adapt to the undeniable evidence.

https://www.ecdysis.bio/

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My guest for this episode is Nick Hillman. Nick has worked with vineyards on three continents, including all across the US. Nick now lives in Texas where hed does vineyard and farm consultation with his company Regenerative Agriculture Solutions. Nick has been on a journey that led him from conventional, recipe-type viticulture to a transformed regenerative outlook and approach. He tells us about the ideas and experiences that began to make him ask harder questions, the things that didn’t make sense or seem wise. We get technical about Integrated Pest Management or IPM, as well as the pros and cons of VSP versus high trellis systems, dormant spraying for the most effect with least impact, and Texas AVAs. Along the way, Nick digs into what regenerative viticulture is all about, and why it has grabbed him and led him on this journey.

https://www.regenerativeagsolutions.com/home

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What if everything you ever heard about foxy wine is a lie?

Wine’s F-word is the word "Foxy," and I have been on a journey over the last few years to discover the truth about this word. It has been a surprising and surprisingly impactful journey because it turns out that this word is tied up with almost everything that is currently and perennially relevant to the wine industry because it has to do with deeply held prejudice. And that’s why I believe it’s important to understand what’s going on with this wine term. I don’t know of any journey that is more important than freeing ourselves of prejudice. Liberating our minds from the tyranny of misinformation and our own psychological hang-ups may be, I think, the only way that we will be able to adapt, evolve, and survive on a planet that is wired with a nuclear self-destruct button that has been entrusted to the care of chest beating apes.

In other words, Free your mind, and life will follow.

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Meet Charlie and Josh of Sylvan Farm and Cidery. They do such an excellent job of introducing themselves and their story, that it would be redundant for me to pre-introduce them here. But I will tempt you to listen on by saying that they talk about harvesting wildish fruit – you know wild is an illusion, right? So maybe feral is more accurate - and making wine cider from it. Or cider wine. They talk about Queer ecology, and living and growing on the feral side of agriculture. They talk about how they’re integrating tree breeding and selection and adaptive un-farming into their orchard program. And they talk about what they’ve learned from getting this thing started over the past couple of years. Now Sylvan Farm & Cidery is new, and I love the ideas and intentions behind it and through it because I think we’ll all be able to learn some really valuable things along with Josh and Charlie as they explore these ideas in their farming. Oh and they may be making some of the most deliciously interesting perry that come from a grove of wild feral trees that may actually be one tree, like one super organism tree, so I’m excited for you to hear about that and for us all to taste their first vintage soon!

https://sylvanfarmandcidery.com/

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