Lyndon Smith
I’ve known about Botanist & Barrel and DeFi Wines for a couple years, and even visited them in Asheville, North Carolina. They introduced me to both Muscadine grapes and Paw-paws through their wines. And they have a wine named Grapes Have Feelings, made with apples and muscadine grapes, that is both a delicious wine and one of my favorite names for a wine. I talk to Lyndon Smith, one of the founders and winemakers for Botanist & Barrel and DeFi Wines. We discuss true regionality in wine, the many benefits of co-ferments, whether muscadines express terroir, connecting with deep sense-memories in wine, using wine to stop food waste, trialing new species to both see what works and help plants adjust to climate change, the amazing array of uncommon fruit that Botanist & Barrel uses to make wine, and at the end Lyndon shares about the emotional and physical aftermath of Hurricane Helene and how Asheville is recovering. Welcome to the rainbow of diverse colors and flavors that is possible for Southern Wine and Ciders.
https://www.botanistandbarrel.com/
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Tommy Fenster
Tommy Fenster is a scientist who studies agroecological systems, but specifically for the last few years he’s been focused on gathering data from dozens of vineyards around California and studying the practices and impacts of regenerative viticulture. Tommy gathers data across something like 49 vineyards. In a sense, the largest regenerative viticulture trial is the one being conducted across all vineyards in the world right now as more and more farmers embrace more and more regenerative practices we begin to deepen our understand of how the impacts of regenerative farming compare against the impacts of conventional farming… and Tommy is collecting the data to be able to understand this.
Grazing is a big part of this conversation, and we get into the weeds about how, when, the impacts in different contexts and season, alternatives to sheep and some of the limitations of sheep, as well as some of the creative ways to incorporate sheep and other animals. There’s some really helpful info here that you might not have considered, as well as some important considerations about the potential issues that can arise. We talk a lot about contract grazing and why you shouldn't make assumptions about contract grazing as an easy way to incorporate animals into your winegrowing… you may need to be more creative.
We also dig into tillage and ask some hard questions about where and when and how and if it is ever a good practice. As California attempts to define regenerative agriculture, I think everyone should learn from the system that Tommy and his team uses to parse what it means across an array of best practices and a variety of contexts.
Resources from CAFF on integrating regenerative management practices
Ecdysis 2024 Annual Report. Page 10 has the vineyards highlighted
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Gideon Beinstock
Gideon Beinstock started Clos Saron with Saron Rice in 1999 as an attempt to purely and distinctively express the terroir of their home in the Sierra Foothill outside of Oregon House, California. Over the years they've developed and refined both their winegrowing and winemaking with an eye always toward a more pure expression, less about them and any input, and more about finding what the land has to say through grapes. This objective has led them to some fascinating techniques and approaches to making wine, always thoughtful, and always guided by an attempt to meet authentic needs rather than trendy or contrived philosophies. The result is a kind of integrated farming and wine flavors that you don't find in the rest of California. This is a journey out of time into the world of timeless wine.
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Winegrowing With Horses
This fun episode is a conversation with Domenico Musumeci, co-owner of Ca’Musu and Wine Pirati, with his wife Elise. They live and farm wine in Michigan, and Mimmo talks us through their unique approach to viticulture… which involves working with a draft horse named Buster. I’m a lover of horses, myself, and worked as a horseback trail guide in Colorado at one time in my life, and had the great fortune of getting to know and have a relationship with a horse named Vinegar. Vinegar was named for her personality, but over the course of getting to know her and paying attention to her needs and wants, and learning about how I needed to change to be a trustworthy partner and leader for Vinegar, I found her to be one of the sweetest beings I’ve ever encountered. Mimmo and I talk about some of these considerations that may not be top of mind when thinking of working with horses, or other animals. They are individuals, just like us. And we also get into some of the really practical and economic calculations to factor into your plan of farming with horses. Like… do you prefer the smell of horse farts or diesel exhaust? And what does it mean to be a good leader? In relation to this, Mimmo observes at one point how much we ask of the land, the animals, and the plants we work with and live from, but how seldom do we ask what we need to give of ourselves in return? Mimmo asks us to consider our viticulture as a multidirectional exchange, rather than a one way sense of expectation and even entitlement. We even talk about a kind of vite maritata, or married vine viticulture they started as a way to work with an ecological legacy they found on part of their land. The way that Mimmo and Elise farm is not common, and it allows us to get some incredible insights from their perspectives on their relationship to their land… we pack a lot into this conversation, but we may need a part 2 because there’s so much more to explore.
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World’s Largest Regenerative Organic Viticulture Trial
My guest for this episode is Caine Thompson, head of sustainability for O’Neill Vintners. Caine has initiated and oversees the largest side-by-side trial of regenerative organic viticulture in the world at Robert Hall Winery, one of O’Neill Vintners flagship brands in Paso Robles. Going into it’s 5th year in 2025, this regenerative organic viticulture trial is already providing data that show that regenerative organic viticulture, in Paso Robles, provides, at minimum, economic & wine quality parity with conventional agriculture while improving soil and vine health, carbon and water storage, and benefitting multiple other elements of the ecosystem and socio-cultural context of the winery. O’Neill has already converted the rest of Robert Hall’s estate vineyards to regenerative organic viticulture after seeing the results from just the first years of the trial.
I often use this podcast to bring attention to smaller producers doing great work who might otherwise not get the same media coverage that large brands get. And I do think that’s important. But an ecological approach to wine is not a niche obsession. It’s what needs to become the dominant culture. So I think it is also important to applaud the genuine commitments to ecological alignment by larger companies. With many other beverage brands under its control, O’Neill is the kind of company that can begin to set a larger trend and cause real change to happen. There is a lot of heart behind this story, thanks to Caine and the others he works with. Prepare yourself to hear something both inspiring and hopeful for a change.
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Aaliyah Nitoto
My guest for this episode makes wine from flowers. Her name is Aaliyah Nitoto and her winery is called Free Range Flower Winery. She’s based out of Oakland, California, so she could use grapes. But her first attempts at infiltrating the grape wine hegemony we’re overly welcoming. As she assessed and regrouped, her studies led her to a different calling. Her story is inspiring and her fermentations are both refreshingly novel and at the same time steeped in historical tradition. At every step she has had to confront and overcome the Grape supremacy of the dominant wine culture, and a few other obstacles as well. But she has created a beautiful, and ecological approach to wine, and I’m grateful to get to share her story with you.
https://www.freerangeflowerwinery.com/
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Nico Kimberly
This episode digs into several varieties of hybrid grapes being grown in New Hampshire by the team that makes up NOK Vino. I speak with Nico Kimberly, the founder of NOK Vino, about the challenging viticulture of New Hampshire, what its like to be making wine in a new, young wine region, the importance of community to these efforts, and the diversity of grapes that are making it possible to do what he’s doing. Nico has a refreshingly non-dogmatic perspective, that approaches each site and each vintage as having unique needs that must be carefully observed and thoughtfully and individually managed, and each plant and life in and around his vineyards as individuals to learn from, care for, and live symbiotically with.
Honoring Groundbreaking Winemakers
Honoring Groundbreaking Winemakers
Maybe you took a break from alcohol this January and you don't want to go back to drinking wines made within the dominant paradigm. Maybe you'd like to try something truly extraordinary, rare, unique, ecological, and excellent. If so... the new episode offers some mind-blowing suggestions.
For this episode I assembled a gathering of Los Angeles wine professionals to taste through a handful of wines that represent winemakers who are among some of the most groundbreaking... and the most unacknowledged for the amazing work they do.
Tasters):
Adam Huss - host/producer Beyond Organic Wine, Centralas Wine
Elodie Oliver- wine educator, sales with Nomadic
Chiara Shannon - regenerative farmer/owner Ampelos Vineyards (Sta. Rita Hills), The Yogi Sommelier
Teron Stevenson - partner at Offhand Wine Bar, one of the Westside Winos
Wines Tasted (in order of tasting):
"Random Apples" by Raging Cider & Mead - found, foraged seedling & uncultivated apples from Southern California
"Sparkling Prickly Pear" by Wild Texas Wine - foraged uncultivated 100% prickly pear brut sparkling wine, traditional method
"Okneski Vineyard" by Herrmann York - backyard vineyard Zinfandel from Redlands, CA (Contributed by Teron Stevenson)
"In A Dark Country Sky" by La Garagista - whole cluster Vermont Marquette
"The Pariah" by North American Press - sparkling Catawba revival, first in California in 60 years
To highlight a few incredible wine producers, I necessarily must leave out others. So, like any spotlight of this kind, please know that my intention was not to be comprehensive. Most of these producers do stand out, though, for doing wine in a way that very few, if any, are doing it, and with exemplary and even uncommon quality and craft.
Enjoy!
Adam
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Becky Sykes
Becky Sykes is the Program Director of the Regenerative Viticulture Foundation, and she’s gives us a great introduction to many of the resources and opportunities available to wine producers through their work. Becky tells us about the RVF’s upcoming 1 block challenge, as well as their regenerative Toolkit that you can participate in as a winegrower, and we discuss many of the other resources and ideas that the RVF brings attention to. In short, you’ll hear many reasons why and how you can get involved with the Regenerative Viticulture Foundation and help move viticulture in a regenerative direction.
https://www.regenerativeviticulture.org/
Also, please check out this past episode which discusses and gives resources for regenerative ag data:
https://www.organicwinepodcast.com/episodes-1/ecdysis-regenerative-wine
Here are some fun and informative links about ecoacoustics:
Ecoacoustics: The Ecological Investigation and Interpretation of Environmental Sound
Sounds of the underground reveal soil biodiversity dynamics...
A Fun Video About Soil Ecoacoustics
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Bruce Reisch
Bruce Reisch joined the faculty of Cornell University in New York in 1980 and spent the last 40 years specializing in developing new grape cultivars as well as new grape breeding techniques. During this time his program released 14 new grape cultivars, 10 of which are wine grapes. In fact I have one of his most popular grapes, Traminette, growing with a persimmon tree in my front winegarden here in LA. Bruce was also Chair for over 10 years of the Grape Crop Germplasm Committee, a national committee overseeing U.S. Department of Agriculture efforts to preserve wild and cultivated grapevines. He has studied grapes all over the world, published many papers on a variety of topics in the realms of Grape breeding and genomics, Molecular genetic mapping, and Marker-assisted selection, and won awards for the excellence of his grapes and his career achievements.
Bruce talks about the qualities of most of the cultivars that were developed during his time at Cornell, and gives us a historical context and an overview of current practices and objectives for grape breeding. We also discuss the possibility, almost a thought experiment, of growing a seedling vineyard to mimic the genetic variation that happens as grapes propagate and grow without human influence in forest lands. There are so many juicy tidbits throughout this conversation, it’s pointless to start listing just a few. This is a fantastic, comprehensive introduction to hybrid grape culture and why it is the present and future of wine.
A big thanks to our sponsor:
Links to grape fungal resistance tables:
(Please note: I offer these links as examples only of tables that give ratings on fungal resistance. Resistance is never absolute, varies from location to location, and is influenced by many factors including: climate, weather, care, trellising, micro-climate, soil health, and many other factors. I do not endorse either the information nor the sources of the information, and I strongly recommend gathering lots of information from many sources, especially from growers of the cultivars, in your region if possible.)
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The First Principle of Regenerative Agriculture
Behind the ecological devastation caused by conventional, industrial viticulture and agriculture in general are ideas of disconnection and individualism, which lead to extraction and parasitism. These won't be solved by focusing on soil health. We need to rebuild our belonging to the community of life. Gratitude is a great place to start to reconnect with our dependence on our community.
“...when you are convinced that all the exits are blocked, either you take to believing in miracles or you stand still like the hummingbird. The miracle is that the honey is always there, right under your nose, only you were too busy searching elsewhere to realize it. The worst is not death but being blind, blind to the fact that everything about life is in the nature of the miraculous.”
―Henry Miller
The Lost Art of Natural Wine
My guest for this episode is Daniel Callan, the cellar man behind Slamdance Koöperatieve. Daniel pointed out to me recently that I've been too focused on winegrowing. I had to agree, and Daniel’s suggestion was that we talk about how the past of winemaking may actually be its future. Because, essentially, all wines made throughout history until sometime around the start of the 20th century, were natural wines, and were made without additives nor fossil fuel powered, high-tech wineries and wine factories. Daniel is a student of the history of winemaking in general, but in California specifically. He believes everything we’re trying now has already been tried and we don’t need to reinvent the wheel. We can learn from those who came before… we just have to read some books that we can find at the library. He even looks to the old vines as a kind of genetic library for what does well in his region, and makes wine from varieties that mostly don’t exist elsewhere in any scalable quantity. This is a refreshingly technical winemaking episode that follows Daniel’s process for making his wine in detail from harvest to bottling, as well as a look at how we can find answers to the challenges of climate change and a post-industrial world by looking to the past.
@slamdancekooperatievewines
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Hybrid Wines in California
This episode features a conversation with Adam Tolmach of Ojai Vineyards, and it’s located not too far from Los Angeles in distance. Adam Tolmach lost his estate vineyard a couple decades ago to a vine disease that is endemic to Southern California. This disease has become a serious problem for anywhere in North America that has mild enough winters… and that area is steadily creeping north. This vine disease is known as Pierce's Disease, it is spread by insects… specifically sharpshooters, and as Adam suggests, it was the cause of the death of tens of thousands of acres of vineyards in Southern California, and likely contributed to the contraction of the wine industry here and its move to Northern California by the end of the 19th century.
There are currently only two options for preventing your vineyard from succumbing to Pierce's Disease if you live in an area that has it, which is pretty much the entire Southern United States: you can either spray aggressively with knock-down insecticides – the intense, kill-on-contact kind – OR you can plant varieties of grapes that have inherent resistance to the disease… and those varieties of grapes are the kind that contain the genetics of the native vines that evolved with the disease. In other words, you need hybrids. There are no vinifera varieties that are resistant to Pierce's Disease.
So, in 2017, Adam resurrected his estate vineyard by planting a selection of modern hybrid grapes that were bred here in California specifically to be resistant to Pierce's Disease. There are so many really incredible discussion points that come up in this conversation, but I wanted to give some further context to this.
Nothing illustrates the truth that hybrids are the future of wine more than this disease. With climate change, the range of this disease is continually spreading further north. It is on the doorstep of 90% of the winemaking in the US, and it knocking louder every year. It was recently found in Humbolt County, which is almost to California’s northern border. It is a zero tolerance disease… as Adam says, one bite from an insect that carries the disease can kill that vine within about 3 years. So the choices are pretty stark about what you can do to deal with it: either A) cling to vinifera and nuke your vineyards with really awful chemical insecticides continually, essentially creating a dead zone around your vines, or B) adapt and embrace change and build a wine culture ecologically on a greater diversity of varieties.
As I began researching for this conversation with Adam Tolmach, I discovered that there are quite a few vineyards who have planted small amounts of the resistant varieties that Adam grows. Even Caymus in Napa Valley. Nobody is really publicizing it yet, but hybrids are being integrated quietly, almost surreptitiously into our wine culture here. We’re in the don’t ask, don’t tell phase with regard to hybrids in California. Someday soon, we’re just going to have to grow up and embrace them as equals. And I’m really grateful to Adam for being one of the folks who’s willing to champion them.
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Tomeu Llabrés
My guest for this episode grows and makes wine on one of the most popular island vacation spots in the Mediterranean Sea: Mallorca. His name is Tomeu Llabrés, and his winery is C’an Verdura. You might be surprised to find out how much of an impact Mallorca has had on the world. You might be less surprised to find that the local, indigenous varieties of grapes that Tomeu works with out-perform on several measures the Cabernet and other “trendy” grapes that were brought to Mallorca just a few decades ago to cater to tourists. We’ll get to know the Mallorcan grapes better, and find some solutions to making cool wines in a hotter world.
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How To Make Ecological Wine - Beyond Death In The Vineyard
After spending the year learning some of the limits of regenerative wine, and reporting those in the Death in the Vineyard mini-series, I wanted to spend some time exploring what regenerative wine could be. This is a stand-alone episode, but it also functions as an epilogue to the Death In The Vineyard series.
The most important lesson I learned this year is that it is impossible to grow or make wine “regeneratively,” or even to grow organically or biodynamically in a meaningful way, or to make “natural” wine in any way that isn’t green-washing, unless you start with an ecological foundation. But what does that mean?
What does an ecological approach to winegrowing and wine making look like?
This episode looks at two brilliant and unique approaches to growing and making an ecological wine business. It is meant to excite and tempt and titillate you about how we could have a very different experience with wine. This episode is an invitation. I invite you to cultivate your imagination for what's possible, to think constructively of alternative perspectives on winegrowing, to recreate your understanding of what it means to be regenerative. I invite you into a new vision for wine.
This episode and the others in this series took a lot of work to produce. If you'd like to support or sponsor them financially, this would be incredibly helpful to enabling me to continue to do this kind of investigating and reporting.
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Steve Matthiasson
My guest for this episode is Steve Matthiasson. This is the second time I’ve interviewed Steve, so I highly recommend listening to the first episode from about three years ago if you haven’t. Steve is the eponymous dude behind Matthiasson Wines, and maybe dude is the wrong title for Steve. He might be more of a punk rebel organic evangelist operating from inside the Cabernet Curtain in the heart of Napa Valley. Surprisingly for this podcast, you’re going to hear praise for James Suckling AND The Mondavi Family, and a hopeful outlook for classical wines in California despite climate change. But much more importantly, and less surprisingly, you’re going to hear numerous incredibly helpful technical vitiultural insights into how to farm grapes organically to make fresh, vibrant wines in an increasingly hotter world. Once again, I recommend getting out your notepad and pencil for this one.
Death In The Vineyard Part 3
What is the role of death and disease in regenerative winegrowing, regenerative viticulture, regenerative agriculture?
How do we cope with the necessity to kill in order to live?
What does our relationship with rodents say about what it means to be human?
What does a vole infestation in a vineyard tell us about life and death?
Death In The Vineyard, Part 2
Do humans have a vole infestation or do voles have a human infestation? This and other questions from this episode may haunt your dreams and have you wondering if maybe "regenerative winegrowing" is an oxymoron.
The big question of Part 2 of the Death In The Vineyard mini-series is "What are the regenerative solutions to all the things that want to eat our wine crops?"
In trying to answer this question Part 2 looks at the cultural assumptions, language, beliefs, and prejudices that inform the way we currently see and relate to all of the lives that feed on our vines and trees.
Get ready to take a wrecking ball to your ideas about Integrated Pest Management, not to mention your assumptions about snakes.
Additionally, you'll get a list of practical tactics for preventing or stopping vole infestations or other plagues of rodents.
Don't listen to this episode unless you're ready to be a global leader in regenerative winegrowing and regenerative agriculture in general.
Andrew Backlin
We’re going back to Michigan for this episode to talk to Andrew Backlin, the production mangager / winemaker of Modales Wines in Fenville Michigan. You may have heard Andrew’s voice already if you listened to the first part of my special Death In the Vineyard series.
Andrew tells the story of Modales’ transition from conventional wine production just four years ago, to fully organic for the last three years and now certified… growing mostly vinifera. Their vineyard went from dead, round-up nuked hardpan with basically zero organic matter, to living, thriving, healthy soils with worms and a 400% increase in organic matter. You can hear in his voice and enthusiasm that his participation in regenerating this ecosystem has lit him up, and it’s infectious.
On the other hand, he also doesn’t shy away from mentioning the big problems that still face winegrowers who want to do the right thing but who have inherited a large investment in vinifera in a temperate, humid climate that was made possible by chemistry.
I want to mention just one of those issues as a call to action. Andrew at one point mentions the fact that because something like 95% of the wine in the US comes from the west coast where we don’t face problems like black rot, very little research and investment has gone into organic controls for black rot specifically, and it is the main Achilles heel of organic viticulture in humid climates. While I of course think grape breeding should be a primary effort to solve this and other fungal issues, the reality is that many hybrids also have issues with black rot, and there are very few hybrids that can tolerate this fungus in very wet years. And Andrew brings up several other great points about why better organic sprays are necessary given the current wine culture… unless the USDA wants to invest millions of dollars on marketing to create a new wine culture that’s not chauvinistic toward hybrids.
Come to think of it, the USDA could sponsor this podcast to help with that effort…
A few other important things to know about Andrew… he’s a California native who moved to Michigan for wine. He gave me the inspiration and gentle kick in the butt to create the Beyond Organic Wine google group for anyone who is learning and trying to farm and make wine in more ecological, better than organic ways … and if you’d like to join, just log into google go to groups and search beyondorganicwine all one word with no spaces and ask to join. It’s a low key vibe community… no one is trying to sell anything, but we’re there when you have questions or important discoveries to share… and the more the merrier, healthier, and better at farming and winemaking we will be. So we hope to connect with you there.
As Andrew talks us through both the hopes and the realities of transitioning to organic vinifera viticulture in his climate, there’s as much to learn as be inspired by. Enjoy.
Death In The Vineyard Part 1
I experienced a vole infestation in a vineyard for the first time, and it has devastated my understanding of regenerative viticulture. In this first of a multi-part series called Death In the Vineyard, I talk to experts and winegrowers from all over the US about this adorable little creature, the vole, and the massive impact it has had historically and ecologically in our wine landscapes. As I follow the threads of truth that unravel before the voracious voles, they reveal some gaping holes in the fabric of our regenerative ideology. This episode and the ones to follow in this mini-series will question some of your most cherished beliefs and ideals about regenerative wine. If the regenerative movement is to survive, I believe we need to begin answering the questions that voles are asking of us.
This episode and the others in this series took a lot of work to produce. If you'd like to support or sponsor them financially, this would be incredibly helpful to enabling me to continue to do this kind of investigating and reporting.
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