It’s time for an end of the imperialistic colonial culture that we’ve all had plenty of by now. It’s time to recognize that there are indigenous grapes that grow best in every location on the lands of this earth, and they don’t need chemistry to survive because they evolved in those lands. And beyond that, great wine doesn’t have to be only about grapes. There are amazing fermented beverages from whatever is locally available in every corner of the globe, even those corners where grapes can’t grow.

In other words, free your palate and your mind will follow.

And you know what, say what you will about Natural Wine… it has freed an entire generation’s palate.

Sponsor:

https://www.centralaswine.com/

Jack Sporer is the owner of Fres.co Wine and Magnolia Wine Services.

This interview is a great episode for a beginning winemaker thinking of starting their own brand and considering how to make that dream a reality. Because Jack is the owner of a custom crush winery facility. Unless you are independently wealthy or inherited a vineyard, you are likely going to start your winery in some sort of a co-op or shared winery space, and since that’s how I make our wine for my brand Centralas (whose wines, btw, are available for sale at CentralasWine.com the purchase of which supports this wonderful podcast) and since Jack owns one of these facilities, we dig into the pros and cons, the whys and the hows, and the hard questions you need to ask before choosing a facility. No, you don’t want to start making a wine at the nearest crush pad, unless it also stands up to some thorough evaluation.

Jack’s custom crush facility in Sonoma is also the home of his winery Fres.co, which he named Fresh Wine Company in an attempt to cause us to think about wine the way we think about produce, as a product that is grown.

Jack is deeply involved in regenerative agriculture, through both Fres.com and Magnolia, and he makes an incredibly important point about it. Basically, true regenerative agriculture implies working with degraded or poorly managed land, NOT pristine organically farmed vineyards. And that means that regenerative agriculture is about building bridges between farmers & winemakers with different and even opposing philosophies.

I love that Jake embodies true regenerative agriculture with both Fres.co and Magnolia, and I think he does that with very smart, empathetic, and trust-building interactions that set an amazing example that we can all learn from.

https://fresh.wine/

Sponsor:

https://www.centralaswine.com/

Hidalgo, Wetumka, Norton, Cloeta. If you haven’t heard these names before, they are American heritage or American native wine grape varieties. And they are just a few of the dozens of native grape varieties being grown at TerraVox or Vox Vineyards, just outside of Kansas City, Missouri.

Missouri is the site of America’s first and oldest AVA, by the way, so it has a long and fascinating wine history, which we get into in this interview.

In the current American wine industry, built as it is on imported European varieties, these American native varieties haven’t had much of a voice. But Jerry Eisterhold and Jean-Louis Horvilleur are helping to change that. Jerry is the founder and proprietor of TerraVox, and Jean is the winemaker and vineyard manager. TerraVox means Voice of the Land.

TerraVox is a living museum of the diversity of American native wine grapes. But more than that, it is an example of viticulture as a dynamic process. And while this interview is chock-full of amazing insights and information, these are the two points that I hope you’ll hear most clearly:

That fostering, preserving, and celebrating diversity is the key to creativity, innovation, and resilience, and that the best viticulture is a dynamic process, built on the ability to continually adapt and incorporate diversity.

Celebrating diversity and process-centered rather than varietal-centered viticulture are the keys to eliminating short-sighted decision making and to building adaptability and resilience into the American wine industry.

I want to thank Jerry and Jean for giving us a great example of how this can be done through TerraVox.

https://www.voxvineyards.com/

Sponsor:

https://www.centralaswine.com/

Ian Thorsen-McCarthy is my guest for this episode, and he has made wine on both coasts… first in California and now in New York.

His project is Artemis Botanical, and you can probably tell from the name that he doesn’t just make wine. Vermouth and now cider are part of his repertoire, and he is equally thoughtful about them all. Ian is deeply rooted in natural winemaking. So much so that if you tested him on how to add sulfur to wine, he might fail.

In this conversation we talk about why he decided to move his winemaking to New York, why he decided to work with grapes that were not organically grown for the first time and the importance of this to actually making a difference with his winemaking.

Ian asked me some great questions too, and this conversation ranged into new territory that I think is very helpful in grappling with some complex issues. I’m really grateful Ian was willing to explore these things with me, and I can’t wait to see what this new chapter of his wine life will bring.

https://www.artemisbotanical.com/

Sponsor:

https://www.centralaswine.com/

“The blood of the land” is how Jason Kesselring refers to wine. Jason grows grapes and makes wine in a place that sounds like it’s from Game of Thrones, where winter temperatures drop below 30 degrees … below zero, and summer temps can get over 100, where wind blows viciously year round, and tornados are common in the summer, and where last year at the end of May the temperature dropped to minus 23 degrees.

Welcome to North Dakota, one of the most extreme climates in the Americas.

Kesselring Vineyards is America’s only vitis riparia vineyard, and it’s been around for over a decade. Jason started the vineyard by observing and tagging wild vines, taking cuttings in the winter, and propagating them a few feet away in his vineyard, then created additional blocks via massale selection.

When I say propagate, I mean he literally just stuck the cuttings in the ground. And Jason says he actually had to spray them, once, in the last fifteen years, because of a crown gall issue.

What Jason is doing is revolutionary, but at the same time it’s the most natural thing that humans have been doing for thousands of years. The question it begs is, Why isn’t this the basis of American viticulture and wine? As you hear Jason’s incredible story, in his understated way that seems characteristic of this place in the world, that question becomes more and more poignant.

As I talked to Jason I became overwhelmed, not by what he was doing, but by how surreal and absurd the imported, Eurocentric wine world is that I generally inhabit and that dominates the wine industry. I cannot thank Jason enough for bringing somewhat of an outsider’s perspective to hold up a mirror to my way of thinking, and for introducing me to a new world of extreme beauty.

@kesselringvineyards

Sponsor:

https://www.centralaswine.com/

And:

The Ecological Wine Score

My guest for this episode is Darek Trowbridge. Darek is the mind and body behind Old World Winery. He refers to himself as a soil farmer rather than a grape farmer, and this earth-first approach had led him to coin the term “Pastoral Winemaker” … because Darek has been making Natural Wine since before anyone called it natural wine.

That’s right, Darek is a pioneer in the natural wine movement, and a true OG who started his winery in the 90’s and was farming vineyards before that. He has a wealth of information to share from well over 25 years of regenerating vineyard ecosystems and shepherding wine.

We talk about exactly how he does this, bringing vineyards planted in the 1800’s back to vibrant vitality by building soil carbon. We talk about how he uses sesame oil as his only fungicide, his farming of the only Abouriou vineyard in the New World, and how he is helping Sonoma County reduce wildfire risk while regenerating soil health with proprietary woodchip compost through his Soil Carbon Management Company.

Darek is someone who has ignored the trends and just continued to make farming-first wine for decades. And because of that he probably hasn’t gotten the attention he deserves. So I’m thrilled to be able to share the beautiful work he’s been doing.

https://www.oldworldwinery.com/

Sponsor:

https://www.centralaswine.com/

It was such a pleasure to geek out with Martha Stoumen about making wine for this epidsode. This conversation gets highly technical, and even more highly helpful for anyone, at any level, who is making wine or thinking about it. If you want to take your wine making to the next level, listen closely. I have learned multiple new things from Martha every time I’ve re-listened.

The ostensible subject of this episode is How to make Natural Wine, but of course there isn’t one way to make natural wine. Instead, Martha offers the principles and perspectives and biology and chemistry that can help you approach wine making holistically, with the goal of helping this living being – the grapevine – achieve what seems to be its ultimate destiny. And we do a case study of one of her wines, to give an intimate and detailed view of the practical application of her approach.

The one impression that I hope you’ll get, if nothing else, is just how thoughtful Martha is about every aspect of this process. She thinks carefully about everything from the macro to the micro, and asks great questions about how to use human efforts to facilitate all of the non-human elements that work for us to create, and refine, and protect a beautiful wine. We could not have asked for a better teacher.

Martha makes wine in Sebastapol, California and you can buy her wines at marthastoumen.com. And I highly recommend you do try them. We talk about how well adapted Italian varieties of grapes are to making natural wine in California, and she has several examples that show just how deliciously true that is.

Sponsor:

Centralas Wine

Stephen Hagen and Andrew Smith are my guests on this episode, and we’re talking about Antiquum Farm in Oregon. Antiquum is Stephen’s family farm where Andrew runs the cellar, and where they practice Grazing-Based Viticulture, or what Stephen calls Joy Based Agriculture, and I believe he’s doing for grape farming what Joel Salatin has done for regular farming. Antiquum is a vineyard ecosystem specifically designed to enable nearly year-round high-intensity managed grazing of kune kune pigs, sheep, geese, chickens and ducks in the vineyard, though not necessarily in that order. Stephen describes in detail the infrastructure, practical considerations, animal breeds, resources, and much much more that is necessary to make this system work and to make it possible to produce wine that is 100% true to place.

This is a must-listen for anyone considering maintaining a year-round herd and incorporating them in the vineyard, or for anyone who just wants to hear an example of some incredible, earth-first agriculture and how that impacts the wine that comes from it.

This ecosystem requires zero outside inputs for fertility. This closed loop holistic farm continually increases the distinctiveness and richness of the soil microbiome which has had dramatic effects on the grapes’ morphology, chemistry, and flavor. If you really believe in terroir, Stephen and Andrew have taken this concept to such an extreme that I think it redefines terroir. This is such a compelling perspective that I think it challenges a majority of the claims to terroir in the wine world.

If you want to be inspired by what could be possible for the future of wine, or if you want to save 15 years of trial and error in grazing-based viticulture, prepare for a 20 terabit download. And don’t be surprised if you start hearing the name Antiquum – however you pronounce it – a lot more often.

https://www.antiquumfarm.com/

Sponsor:

https://www.centralaswine.com/

My guest for this episode is Christopher Renfro of The Two Eighty Project. If you haven’t had the pleasure to learn about what he’s doing with wine in San Francisco, you’re in for a treat.

Christopher spent much of his childhood in Germany, which allows him a bit of an outsider’s perspective on the culture of the United States that is refreshing and extremely relevant. He has a big vision for the kinds of things he wants to accomplish. We jump right in to discuss the foundational characteristics of the culture of the United States in relation to his story, his work to create what I refer to as a counter-culture of compassion through wine, and his thoughts on our many deep connections to the land and disconnections from it.

But as big as these ideas are, I really appreciated how Christopher is grounded in appreciation for the magic of being alive, breathing air and eating food that we can grow from the earth. I love the inclusiveness of his vision and his desire to celebrate and embrace the many diverse people and cultures that make up our world. This excitement for the contribution that each different being can contribute to our live is what I think is the soul of biodiversity, and a key to the shift of perspective needed to heal our culture… and our climate.

@thetwoeightyproject

Sponsor:

https://www.centralaswine.com/